Snowboard Club UK (SCUK)

Technique - HELP

barrybaker - Mar 08, 2010 - 10:01 PM
Post subject: HELP

Hi,

I have done about 10 hours boarding and just starting to carve. Although i dont think i bend my knees enough or go on my edge enough, but at least i was starting to make some progress

Then last week i was in Austria at Saalbach. on the 3rd day, in the morning i was doing really well, ( for me ) then I stopped for lunch and then for the rest of the day it was like i had never been on a board before. Just couldnt turn on to my Toe Edge.

On the last day i went for a couple of hours in the morning and i found that everytime i went on to my toe edge the back of my board wouldnt come around, almost like i was leaning back, but i dont think i was.

Any ideas ??? really frustrating.

siany - Mar 08, 2010 - 10:14 PM
Post subject: RE: HELP

i had this problem, and found it was because i was looking. I could turn fine when my boyfriend was behind me and i was looking uphill to him but if he'd gone ahead to wait i just ended up flat lining down the hill, now where i look isn't an issue, but when first learning i found if i looked down the hill when turning heels to toes, that's where i went, and fast Smile

yellowlala - Mar 10, 2010 - 08:48 AM
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Sounds like you probably are leaning back if that's how it feels. You need to commit to that turn, a little additional weight over you leading leg, think of a 60/40% split lead/trailing leg.

If you have learnt the foot steering tecnnique use it, it works! From your heel edge move a little weight forward over your lead leg, then drop the toes on your lead foot and bring the toes on your back foot up into the top of your boots.

Also when away, just ride the morning hard and relax in the afternoon as you can over do it at first. Riding tired is a really bad idea as you need to build your stamina/muscles etc and at first you'll be using much of your energy to initiate turns, as time goes by you'll rely on the torsional flex of your board.

And don't put any pressure on yourself, relax and enjoy, if you start to get frustrated go have a break and try again when you're relaxed. Also do you live near a dome at all?

barrybaker - Mar 10, 2010 - 10:23 PM
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1 min video of me before 'lunch' felt like i was going really fast, but when you watch yourslef you look like your going really slow, any advice would be great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__qNR-0zSM4

DereksDontRun - Mar 10, 2010 - 11:12 PM
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(disclaimer) I'm not an instructor, so probably best to take with a pinch of salt... vid looks like you're leaning back - when you cross the camera and go away from it it looks like your front leg is almost straight and your rear is bent (thus you must be leaning back). Also looks like you're skid-turning with your rear foot (possibly again 'cos there's no weight on the front foot.)

make sure you're bending your front leg and when learning I found elvis-knee helped - steer with your front knee, pivoting it in/out like you're elvis. Sounds crazy but the knee movement forces you weight forward while also twisting your front foot in/out which twists the board and initiates the turn.

but don't knock yourself, looks like you're coming along and as long as you're enjoying yourself then take your time. Sure it's good to push yourself but go at a pace you're happy with - accidents and pain only happens by going crazy.

dunx - Mar 11, 2010 - 12:06 AM
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Leaning back for sure, but general stance looks okay. Try going "grrr" and riding a bit more aggressively to try and get that weight forward. Try to charge a bit more.

barrybaker - Mar 11, 2010 - 12:16 AM
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it strange coz i feel like i am leaning forward, tbh the bit where i go pass the camera, i nearly fell, a few bump. but i am loving it, i suppose its just getting over the fear factor.

I understand when people say speed is your friend, coz i keep trying to slow myself down, the odd turn on to my edge to slow myfels down, but if i just let it flow then i go betta, its just getting over that step..

I can ski, and i was getting frustrated that i couldnt get around on a board, let be honest, any muppet can snow plough and get around. but now i am getting to grips with it, i'm going to stick at it

Thanks for the advice tho

Mattylovesthewindchill - Mar 11, 2010 - 12:18 AM
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Alright Baz,

Here is my 2p.

Your biggest problem is your toe side posture. When you come around for middle and last part of your toe turn, you dont actually commit your hips or shoulders over that toe edge. Instead your front shoulder points down the hill, which makes it impossible for you to get your centre of mass over your effective edge. The reaction of this is that you can never fully turn across the hill on your toes, and you never get your weight over your toe edge so you dont really create any edge angle which means you cannot slow down. I am guessing you have probably caught a few heel edges too and slammed on you backside.

Make sure you are not pressing down too much on the balls of your feet on you toes - let the boots take some of the strain, this will also allow you to get a little lower and bend your knees more. Spend a little time slipping down a hill on your toes and get those shoulders in line with your board.

Front knee steering as mentioned earlier is also something you should work on as you are ruddering with your back foot.

Good luck pal.

yellowlala - Mar 11, 2010 - 08:43 AM
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Do you live near a dome at all? Or Dryslope?

barrybaker - Mar 11, 2010 - 09:27 AM
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Cheers Matty, i think i know what you mean, coz sometime when i'm on my heel edge going across i feel all twisted up and i try to sort of shake my self free, I so guess keeping my hips and shoulders in line with my board ?

Could my bilnding help with this, i am 18 out on my front foot and 9 out on my back foot. i was suffering really bad foot cramp in my front foot, so that is why i changed them and ended up with this stance !

Once again thank for the help

murray888 - Mar 11, 2010 - 12:15 PM
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I can't see the youtube vid while I'm at work, but just looking at your profile picture tells me you're leaning back too far.

As Dunx says, attack it. You don't need to be going fast, you just need to feel in charge of the board.

I don't know if it's a valid technique or not, but I find that when I'm carving I roll my feet. Kinda hard to explain though...picture this:
Traversing toeside across the hill, to make a heelside turn I turn my head to look down the hill, roll my front foot back onto the heel (leaving my rear foot on the toes) and then roll by rear foot over to the heel afterwards - like a staggered motion.

I think the staggered weight change twists the board and helps the carve.

Also, try pushing your knees apart on a heelside carve and together on a toeside carve.

DereksDontRun - Mar 11, 2010 - 06:12 PM
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barrybaker wrote:

I so guess keeping my hips and shoulders in line with my board ?

yup yup. If you look at some ppl (generally instructors to explain it more) they ride almost like a scarecrow with arms out at the shoulder but then vertically down at the elbow. Afaik this is to show that the body remains in line with the board. You want to be getting the board to turn you by twisting it with your feet (peddling), not forcing/skidding the board around by twisting your shoulders.

Mattylovesthewindchill - Mar 12, 2010 - 02:33 AM
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I am sure you mean well with this advice, but its a little confusing.

You are correct that he is aft on the board, but the biggest problem right now is aligment on the toe side. It is very difficult to manage that fore aft pressure while twisted up so just telling someone to get forward is pretty useless as physically it is very difficult. I am not sure about the knees together on the toe side either - to me that seems like it would be very difficult to bend your knees or absorb any bumps in terrian in that position.

Baz, yes get lined up on your board. My advice again is to slip a hill on your toes for a bit and get used to that position, relax your lower body, and makesure you are pushing your hips out over your toe edge. If your angles are +18 -9 and you feel comfortable then they will be fine.

Its pretty hard to give written advice on technique, so my real advice is to take a lesson, any instructor worth thier salt will pick up your problem straight away.

murray888 wrote:

-Zach- - Mar 15, 2010 - 12:31 AM
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DereksDontRun wrote:

not forcing/skidding the board around by twisting your shoulders.

k first of all, ignore this puntah. seriously, I know im being a dick about this but if you honestly dont know wtf your on about, should you really be giving advice? No Smile

Infact, what will actually help you is using your shoulders more, especially on your toe edge, literally turning the shoulders, core and hips to initiate the turn, patience is key. Also, your legs are way to stiff, get them real bent, i mean reeeeeaal bent. I wouldnt worry to much about alignment, its actually pretty good but yes, you are inclining slightly on your toes but id put that pretty far back on things for you to work on. Your weight is a little back heavy but you'll find that just bending those knee's more is going to sort that out.

peace

philboarder - Mar 15, 2010 - 02:12 AM
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Acctullay Zach Dereks was explaining a turning method taught by Basi

Mattylovesthewindchill - Mar 15, 2010 - 05:24 AM
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Errrrrrrr, I think you might need to heed to your own words on this one, should YOU really be giving advice?

Initiation of turns using shoulders? That hasnt been used for a long time chief. Almost every snowboard body in the world has strayed away from that ancient technique since the arrival of softer boards/never equipment.

Bend your legs? yes thats true, but how? Most people who snowboard know they should ride low/with bent knees, the problem is that they are doing something with thier body which makes this impossible. Most people push down too hard on the balls of thier feet on the toeside, and just use highbacks on the heelside. Simply just telling someone to bend your knees is pretty useless.

I would say the toeside posture is THE most important thing he needs to work on. The biggest danger to any beginner is a big slam that will put you off boarding for a long time. Until that posture is figured out there is a good chance of a heel edge catch, and all the nastiness that comes with it.

-Zach- wrote:

DereksDontRun wrote:

not forcing/skidding the board around by twisting your shoulders.

k first of all, ignore this puntah. seriously, I know im being a dick about this but if you honestly dont know wtf your on about, should you really be giving advice? No Smile

Branny - Mar 15, 2010 - 07:06 AM
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CASI still teach shoulder steering.......

Skunkfu - Mar 15, 2010 - 09:33 AM
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From learning to snowboard couple years ago to freestyle lessons couple days ago, always been told its all about your shoulders babeh! Very Happy

ChasKi - Mar 15, 2010 - 10:12 AM
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I got told to use my shoulders in Austria and then told off for it in the UK.

Now I try not to use my shoulders because I prefer the feeling.

barrybaker - Mar 16, 2010 - 07:13 AM
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WOW... ok thanks for the help, although it all seems very different.

Let me explain.. December 2008 i was going to Canada for xmas, so the wife and i took up snowboard, went to Castleford for 3 x1 hour lessons, then spend 3 separate days snowboarding in Canada, but on each day we had another 1 hour lesson.

Basically at Castleford we were told to push down on our front foot and use the ball of that foot like a joystick and use this to steer. Then in Canada we were told to turn via our hips and shoulders and then the board would follow.

My problem was that sometime the back of the board simply would not come around. and i was getting very frustrated, nearly turned back to the dreaded skis.

Getting my own stuff really help, but then after watch the others at Castleford I noticed some seem to be steering with their back foot, almost kicking the back of the board . SO i tried it and then it started to click and i could get down a lot better.
But I still get that board not coming around bit when turning onto my toe side, but it appears its because my weight is on my back foot. HOW DO U STOP THIS ???? I know people will say just lean forward, but I think I am,,,, really I do.

Branny - Mar 16, 2010 - 07:19 AM
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okay, the kicking the board around is something that many peeps pick up riding dryslope, as there is more friction a lot of dendix warriors kick the back foot around

you have been 2 different techniques, one Basi (at a uk fridge) and one Casi (in Canada)

They both have positive & negative .

However despite all the have a go advise on here, i strongly recommend getting someone to look at you're riding and help with your technique, it's worth booking an improvers course or half day riders development course or similar

these guys see people riding all the time, can advise you in terminology that will hopefully make sense and can make adjustment to the instruction to suit your needs

it may cost a bit but better invest now than compound bad technique that will restrict you're progression in the future.

yellowlala - Mar 16, 2010 - 08:19 AM
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This is why I asked if you're near a dome.

Castleford has the following on offer:-

Snowboard Xcell - Alternate Tuesday Nights (7pm – 10pm) - £50
This3 hour coaching session is designed to progress your Snowboarding by working on advanced riding techniques and putting them into practise. With a maximum of 8 people per session the coaching can be tailored for your riding, enabling you to learn techniques for riding steeper terrain, carving effectively, riding fast & in control, Switch/Fakie and and includes video feedback.

Intermediate 2
Who is it for? Anyone of recreational standard that can link turns from the top of our main slope – i.e. completed our level 4
Aim; To improve your skills, build confidence and ability and show you how to link your turns smoothly
What happens? Your qualified instructor will review progress and show you ways of improving your technique. You will work on linking your turns more smoothly, with more accuracy and building confidence along the way. Your instructor will help you correct any mistakes and work on your riding.
£27 Adults £23 Child

Freshtrax Coaching - Available every Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday morning from 9am - 12pm. Informal ski and snowboard coaching, hints and tips from our instructors to improve your skills. Ask on the hill for details.

You can not improve your technique to the extent you need getting hints over t'internet. Loads of options there at varied times/days. If you don't do well in groups you could book private coaching for you and your partner, www.maverix.org have plenty of coaches that could help.

kieren24 - Mar 16, 2010 - 03:50 PM
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Branny wrote:

CASI still teach shoulder steering.......

which is why a kid off my BASI course who had passed his CASI then failed... and he really was a terrible snowboarder too...

ChasKi - Mar 16, 2010 - 08:06 PM
Post subject:

Branny wrote:

okay, the kicking the board around is something that many peeps pick up riding dryslope, as there is more friction a lot of dendix warriors kick the back foot around

This is super true. I practised on my local dry hill after learning for a week on snow and had to work really hard to stop myself from kicking my back foot out. In the end I found a more aggressive stance with more weight on my front foot did the trick.

The hardest part, was keeping my weight on the front foot throughout the entire turn as at first, I wasn't keeping the more 'aggressive' stance once I'd initiated the turn and was pussying out to my old stance.

Mattylovesthewindchill - Mar 17, 2010 - 01:09 AM
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Branny wrote:

you have been 2 different techniques, one Basi (at a uk fridge) and one Casi (in Canada)

They both have positive & negative .

However despite all the have a go advise on here, i strongly recommend getting someone to look at you're riding and help with your technique, it's worth booking an improvers course or half day riders development course or similar

Not just using your shoulders to turn is not just a BASI thing, its probably every other snowboard body in the world apart from Canada. To suggest they both have equal positive and negative points is way wide of the mark.

The only negatives that I can find with foot steering/twist is that you cant teach it to little kids, and you cant do it very well with stiff equipment. There are however a ton of negatives with shoulder steering, I could probably fill this whole thread with them, but I will just mention a couple. If you try and turn toeside using shoulders and you are not completely fore or centre, then the board catches the aft heel edge. So you end up pointing down the hill, speeding up, with no rotation left, so you are feck. Secondly, when you start to learn trees/bumps/steeps, that rotation is going to cost you a fraction of a second in each turn, which in tight situations you dont have.

I also think you would be surprised at the people that lurk on this forum - have a go advice on here from certain people can be somewhat better than a dome instructor who has never seen a mountain. Video Movement Analysis is a huge part of most certification exams these days. I agree that it is difficult however to give a prescription for change to someone not physically in front of you.

yellowlala - Mar 17, 2010 - 08:01 AM
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Why do you think you can't teach fot steering to kids? And New Zealand also use Casi for many of their coaches as do America.

Cleveland_Steamer - Mar 17, 2010 - 10:12 AM
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I was taught as a beginner using BASI and taught to instruct under CASI. As a beginner I found the foot-steering technique quite complicated (on top of everything else you have to remember). I think that the shoulder-steering of CASI, if linked in correctly with the rest of your body actually has the same affect on your feet and base of the board as BASI, just without thinking so hard about it. So, it left me wishing I learnt under the apparently less painful CASI system from the beginning.

The key though is "if done correctly" with the correct posture. When steering with the shoulders, you should still have your shoulders in line with your board, with an even stance.

...and I don't think you'll get a terrible CASI level 2 rider.

yellowlala - Mar 17, 2010 - 11:39 AM
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Cleveland_Steamer wrote:

The key though is "if done correctly" with the correct posture. When steering with the shoulders, you should still have your shoulders in line with your board, with an even stance.

...and I don't think you'll get a terrible CASI level 2 rider.

CASI is not the devil, bad posture is!

kieren24 - Mar 17, 2010 - 01:54 PM
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Quote:

...and I don't think you'll get a terrible CASI level 2 rider.

concur mate... and looking back on what I said there are some terrible BASI 1 riders out there... all subjective of course...

Mattylovesthewindchill - Mar 18, 2010 - 03:14 AM
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yellowlala wrote:

Why do you think you can't teach fot steering to kids? And New Zealand also use Casi for many of their coaches as do America.

1. Its too complicated
2. They dont have the motor skills or strength to twist a board.

(I am mainly talking about kids under 7,8,9)

Just because other bodies around the world recognise CASI, does not mean they support upper body rotation for steering. Like I said, when you take riding to a higher level, that anticipation of turns will get you into trouble and take a long time to iron out.

Branny - Mar 18, 2010 - 06:57 AM
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Mattylovesthewindchill wrote:

I also think you would be surprised at the people that lurk on this forum - have a go advice on here from certain people can be somewhat better than a dome instructor who has never seen a mountain. Video Movement Analysis is a huge part of most certification exams these days. I agree that it is difficult however to give a prescription for change to someone not physically in front of you.

totally agree mate, i know there are some super knowledgeable people on here...but there are also some complete chumps who sprout technique and then garland turn the hill

the OP probably hasn't been on the forum long enough to tell the difference.

when i had lessons in the olden days I was taught shoulder steering, (but then again it was also in hard boots and asymmetrical boards so doesn't make it right haha) and my mate is a Casi instructor/race/freestyle coach so kinda listen to his advice when i have problems

i am going to have some coaching when i'm back in the UK though as i've kind of plateaued with my riding (about 12 years ago this happened Very Happy

) and i reckon foot steering will help me get my mojo back, especially on much softer boards and set ups.

I find that the CASI method works for me really well big mountain, with a longer, medium to stiff board, i understand the dynamics of pre-compression in turns and stuff and it works well, feels controlled and confident

I loose that in the domes with a softer, shorter board and less speed, so hoping the BASI tech will work better in that environment

Cleveland_Steamer - Mar 18, 2010 - 08:55 AM
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Although a fan of CASI shoulder steering, like I said I did my first few years foot steering. Has anyone checked out Neil McNab's book / DVD "Go Snowboard"? I found that really useful for foot steering / BASI technique - it's explained really clearly in the DVD if I remember rightly.

Mattylovesthewindchill - Mar 18, 2010 - 09:26 AM
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I hear ya.

Coming from someone with big feet using small sidecut wide boards who finds making toeside and heelside carves the same radius on steeps difficult I am fascinated by the concept of asymetrical boards, apparently a couple of manuf. still make them, I would love to try it with my park stance and see if it helps.

Personally I feel like because of the way I have always ridden, (dynamic foot steering) if I use a board which is in any way stiff between the feet, it feels sh1t and I cannot ride it. I think this is also a reason why many self taught people who do not flex the board much think they feel more stable on a stiffer board.

As always, there really is not a defined path in snowboarding, only people who make opinions and can back them up with facts, its always interesting to hear someone elses point of view. Especially if they ride in different way to you/ride a different setup.

Branny wrote:

Mattylovesthewindchill wrote:

kieren24 - Mar 19, 2010 - 08:57 AM
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Quote:

apparently a couple of manuf. still make them,

Merving are putting it on a load of boards next year... I saw quite a lot of the 2011 boards at the X-Games... and Travis's board and even some of the Roxy ones have it...

DereksDontRun - Mar 20, 2010 - 10:08 PM
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been away without net for the last week so wasn't able to reply (or even read this) 'til now.

cheers guys for defending me, I did admit to not being an instructor (only experience is teaching my bro from nothing to near linked turns within a morning tho) but was explaining what I know of the BASI and McNab present teaching techniques and good to hear that despite this sounding like a contentious issue foot-steering is the preferred method these days.

-Zach- wrote:

DereksDontRun wrote:

not forcing/skidding the board around by twisting your shoulders.

k first of all, ignore this puntah. seriously, I know im being a dick about this but if you honestly dont know wtf your on about, should you really be giving advice? No Smile

I'll have that apology now m8 Razz

barrybaker - Mar 30, 2010 - 08:11 PM
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UPDATE

New Video below, got the bending the knees bit, but now i find that when i want to go on to my toe edge, i have to really slow down on my heal edge. i know im doing it but cant stop myself !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uzuBhEftqc